[Biodiesel In Utah] list Digest, Vol 92, Issue 3
rtrim at xmission.com
rtrim at xmission.com
Wed Nov 15 01:08:52 EST 2006
Bill:
Wow, what a load.
Fundamentally, I do somethings just 'cause. I build RC gliders. I could
buy a built one for $400, but I chose to spend $80 on the kit and a few
hundred hours over a bench, building. Cost effective? nope. Feel good
factor... high.
What would I pay? Not sure. Not sure it matters right now.
Will I set up my own bio cracking stuff. Most likely not. But I will
team up with someone else to maximize investment, time, resources.
Single source, clean oil seems like a good idea.
As for acting community like. Maybe we should be a group first, then a
community might just grow out of that.
Not sure this is helpful. Your email kinda irritated me, so I just piped in.
bob
Quoting Bill Hartlieb <bhartlieb at mac.com>:
>
>
> Working with the renderers would be a good idea to get some oil. But
> they are not going to provide a product with more stringent
> processing, for less money.
>
> The COOP working with the restaurants directly is even better.
> Secure oil as early in the process as you can insures the lowest
> cost, the opportunity to grade and select.
>
> An organization like this would have to provide a similar service as
> a rendering company, and better:
>
> Do it efficiently, and promote a better use for a waste product.
>
> Pay for good oil, collect for okay oil, let the other companies
> fight over the poor oil.
>
> Advocate the use of better oil in the restaurant, for their
> customers, and for the downstream processes (this extra cost is
> nullified, as we pay more for better oil).
>
> As it gets colder the issues of WVO increases, and this requires the
> use of more energy, more material handling, less efficient reactions,
> more risk. I do not see it being advantageous to process this oil
> to some point, and then try to distribute oil all over the place, to
> then be further processed? And then waste product scattered all
> over Utah county?
>
> If you would pay $1.28 per gallon for yellow grease, would you pay
> $2.50 for Biodiesel? would you pay $3.00? Would you want to
> advocate an efficient and Safe manufacturing of the Biodiesel,
> testing, and refining, and responsible disposal of byproduct?
>
> It seems there is a need for a community group that acts like a
> community group, working with the community, with the communities
> best interest, not just the individuals who are keen to strive for
> short term gain.
>
> Would love to hear other thoughts,
>
> Bill Hartlieb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:30 PM, list-request at utahbiodiesel.org wrote:
>
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>> _________________________________________________________________
>> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
>> hosted by www.utahbiodiesel.org
>>
>> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual
>> emails to digest mode (one email a day), see http://
>> utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
>> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use in SLCounty
>> (Andre Shoumatoff)
>> 2. Re: Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use in SLCounty
>> (Utah Biodiesel Supply)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:40:33 -0700
>> From: "Andre Shoumatoff" <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
>> in SLCounty
>> To: <graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com>, "'Biodiesel in Utah'"
>> <list at utahbiodiesel.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <mailman. 66.1163532655.13763.list_utahbiodiesel.org at utahbiodiesel.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> As I understand it, once the transportation fee has been paid once and if
>> the grease was collected by a renderer, then it does not have to be paid
>> again (and the permit is not required).. I would be surprized if everyone
>> in the chain needed to have the permit, even the end users... I will have
>> to double check with the health department, but this is what I understood
>> from our meeting last winter when the Health Dept rep was there.. Also
>> there are some city, fire code, and other issues and personally it has me a
>> little concerned as to real world pheasability of homebrewing in homes and
>> home garages & such...
>>
>> Also the cost is a little steep ( I think if it was $.50 a gallon then it
>> would be more attractive to us) but about $.85 is not too out of line.
>> Again this number could go up or down, they will have to look at their
>> costs.. I think it would be something like "cost" for them, so they won't
>> lose money but won't make any and hopefully this could create a solution to
>> problems they are saying they have been having with biodieselers and a
>> solution for us as well... I will have to find out more about the
>> specifics but I gave them a basic outline of we would need and what
>> would be
>> preferred. They said they can selectively choose their oil supplies and
>> provide lower titration once we went through exactly how it works. We will
>> need to work out specifics, water and other contaminents will be removed..
>> They have a close looped system where they basically put in the oil and on
>> the other end it comes out, so there are no "options" so basically we will
>> get what the pig farmers & such get... Also it was good to get a little
>> more insight into their business, they see hundreds of thousands of gallons
>> sometimes at a time, mostly to Texas & such... Big business...
>>
>> So again this is proposed.. Number one thing for them is liability, so if
>> their lawyers axe the idea, then there goes the concept... Also they are
>> not setup for retail so this is why we will need to provide a location.. I
>> have asked "The Oracle" (Mark from MJ Auto, the Benz mechanic off Redwood
>> road who is very biodieseler friendly) and he is considering it.
>> Other than
>> that I have no idea where else we could do it. Then there is the cost of
>> the tank and liability insurance so there are some real logistical issues..
>>
>>
>> Andre
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org [mailto:list-
>> bounces at utahbiodiesel.org]
>> On Behalf Of Graydon Blair
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM
>> To: Biodiesel in Utah
>> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/ use in
>> SLCounty
>>
>>
>> How would this deal with the issue of transporting the grease (the REAL
>> reason it's illegal to collect in SL County?)
>>
>> The permit is to transport, not to collect the grease. If there was a tank
>> full of WVO put somewhere, what are their plans for dispensing it and
>> getting around the "must be permitted to transport" the grease?
>>
>> Technically, if it's been rendered or filtered, then we could get around it
>> that way, as the county doesn't consider it a "waste" product once
>> it's been
>> "industrialized".
>>
>> What would the fee's be to participate in something like this?
>>
>> Andre Shoumatoff <andre at utahbiodiesel.org> wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to report that I have been having discussions with Renegade Oil
>> including an excellent meeting we had last week up here in Heber City
>> including a tour of our brewing facility, to come up with a possible
>> solution to the "grease problem" in Salt Lake County.
>>
>> The proposed partnership would be a tank (1000 gallons most likely) of WVO
>> placed somewhere in Salt Lake City (I am currently exploring options - I do
>> have some possibles already). The oil would be available from a wide
>> diameter spiget to anyone interested. It would be fully rendered,
>> no water,
>> would be high quality that will titrate low, and be filtered to at least
>> 1/4" as part of the agreement. Currently estimated cost would be about
>> ~$.85 a gallon to biodieselers (keep in mind they get are currently getting
>> $1.28 on the market - so this would be a compromise for them).
>>
>> At this point, I am trying to gauge how much real world interest
>> there would
>> be to using this grease, and whether it is worth the expense of insurance,
>> cost of the tank, etc, that hte biodiesel coop will need to take on.
>>
>> How much are people who are brewing willing to use and would you be willing
>> to pay $.85 a gallon or so to buy clean and legal oil? Most of you
>> probably
>> know, the big deal is that collecting WVO in Salt Lake County is currently
>> illegal... Besides that, it takes reasonable infrastructure IMO
>> to collect
>> grease and do it well, and it seems that biodieselers are giving
>> biodiesel a
>> bad name because many are giving up after a few months, walking away from
>> verbal agreements, not picking up barrels when needed, making messes, etc.
>> As Renegade put it, we are "their best salesman."
>>
>> If you can please post up in response, I am curious to hear if you guy
>> think.
>>
>> Hurtles for us are:
>> - Cost of tank, setup, etc.
>> - Cost of insurance (re legal for Renegade).
>> - Cost of oil.
>> - Finding a location for the oil that someone can man.
>>
>> Hurdles for them:
>> - Making sure they can deliver.
>> - Legal (this is probably the biggest deal breaker - they have legitimate
>> legal concerns about it that would need to be addressed).
>>
>>
>> Best, Andre
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah hosted by
>> www.utahbiodiesel.org
>>
>> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual emails to
>> digest mode (one email a day), see
>> http://utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
>> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Utah Biodiesel Supply
>> Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
>> Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
>> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
>> http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
>> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
>>
>> The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
>> Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
>> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
>> <http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> URL: /pipermail/list_utahbiodiesel.org/attachments/
>> 20061114/6f52c7ff/attachment.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:03 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Utah Biodiesel Supply <graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
>> in SLCounty
>> To: Andre Shoumatoff <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com>,
>> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com, 'Biodiesel in Utah'
>> <list at utahbiodiesel.org>
>> Message-ID: <20061114193104.39035.qmail at web56007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> That's funny....."to deal w/ the problems the biodieseler's have
>> been causing them". Hate to say it but they dug their own grave
>> there....
>> ok, back to the topic at hand.
>>
>> If they aren't interested (if the lawyer put's an axe into the
>> deal), let's look at some of the other renderer's. Kuhni's has been
>> very Biodiesel friendly and so has Bonneville. If Renegade isn't
>> interested in playing, then it'd definately be worth looking to the
>> other renderer's in town.
>>
>> I don't think it'd solve all of their "biodiesel problems", as
>> there's folks out there that are going to go for the oil regardless
>> of whether they can buy it or not. It's a principle thing to them.
>>
>> That said, I think it'd be a step in the right direction. There's
>> people in North Carolina that collect oil and sell it to
>> Biodieseler's all the time. Apparently, once it's collected and
>> filtered, it becomes a "raw" product instead of a "waste" product
>> and the permitting to transport it goes away.
>>
>> My ideal oil from them would be 5% or lower FFA content with a
>> water content of less than 2% and have it filtered down to at least
>> 400 microns. If I'm going to pay for oil, it'd have to be
>> "processed" per above, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
>>
>> Still a very doable proposition. Land's not cheap though & you'd
>> need to be able to do a secondary containment around the tank if
>> you procured all the oil.
>>
>> Interesting....
>> -Graydon
>>
>>
>> Andre Shoumatoff <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com> wrote: As I
>> understand it, once the transportation fee has been paid once and
>> if the grease was collected by a renderer, then it does not have
>> to be paid again (and the permit is not required).. I would be
>> surprized if everyone in the chain needed to have the permit, even
>> the end users... I will have to double check with the health
>> department, but this is what I understood from our meeting last
>> winter when the Health Dept rep was there.. Also there are some
>> city, fire code, and other issues and personally it has me a
>> little concerned as to real world pheasability of homebrewing in
>> homes and home garages & such...
>>
>> Also the cost is a little steep ( I think if it was $.50 a gallon
>> then it would be more attractive to us) but about $.85 is not too
>> out of line. Again this number could go up or down, they will
>> have to look at their costs.. I think it would be something like
>> "cost" for them, so they won't lose money but won't make any and
>> hopefully this could create a solution to problems they are saying
>> they have been having with biodieselers and a solution for us as
>> well... I will have to find out more about the specifics but I
>> gave them a basic outline of we would need and what would be
>> preferred. They said they can selectively choose their oil
>> supplies and provide lower titration once we went through exactly
>> how it works. We will need to work out specifics, water and other
>> contaminents will be removed.. They have a close looped system
>> where they basically put in the oil and on the other end it comes
>> out, so there are no "options" so basically we will get what the
>> pig farmers & such get... Also it was good to get a little more
>> insight into their business, they see hundreds of thousands of
>> gallons sometimes at a time, mostly to Texas & such... Big
>> business...
>>
>> So again this is proposed.. Number one thing for them is
>> liability, so if their lawyers axe the idea, then there goes the
>> concept... Also they are not setup for retail so this is why we
>> will need to provide a location.. I have asked "The Oracle" (Mark
>> from MJ Auto, the Benz mechanic off Redwood road who is very
>> biodieseler friendly) and he is considering it. Other than that I
>> have no idea where else we could do it. Then there is the cost of
>> the tank and liability insurance so there are some real logistical
>> issues..
>>
>> Andre
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>> From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org [mailto:list-
>> bounces at utahbiodiesel.org] On Behalf Of Graydon Blair
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM
>> To: Biodiesel in Utah
>> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/
>> use in SLCounty
>>
>>
>>
>> How would this deal with the issue of transporting the grease (the
>> REAL reason it's illegal to collect in SL County?)
>>
>> The permit is to transport, not to collect the grease. If there
>> was a tank full of WVO put somewhere, what are their plans for
>> dispensing it and getting around the "must be permitted to
>> transport" the grease?
>>
>> Technically, if it's been rendered or filtered, then we could get
>> around it that way, as the county doesn't consider it a "waste"
>> product once it's been "industrialized".
>>
>> What would the fee's be to participate in something like this?
>>
>> Andre Shoumatoff <andre at utahbiodiesel.org> wrote: I
>> wanted to report that I have been having discussions with
>> Renegade Oil including an excellent meeting we had last week up
>> here in Heber City including a tour of our brewing facility, to
>> come up with a possible solution to the "grease problem" in Salt
>> Lake County.
>>
>> The proposed partnership would be a tank (1000 gallons most
>> likely) of WVO placed somewhere in Salt Lake City (I am
>> currently exploring options - I do have some possibles already).
>> The oil would be available from a wide diameter spiget to
>> anyone interested. It would be fully rendered, no water, would
>> be high quality that will titrate low, and be filtered to at least
>> 1/4" as part of the agreement. Currently estimated cost would
>> be about ~$.85 a gallon to biodieselers (keep in mind they get
>> are currently getting $1.28 on the market - so this would be a
>> compromise for them).
>>
>> At this point, I am trying to gauge how much real world
>> interest there would be to using this grease, and whether it is
>> worth the expense of insurance, cost of the tank, etc, that hte
>> biodiesel coop will need to take on.
>>
>> How much are people who are brewing willing to use and would
>> you be willing to pay $.85 a gallon or so to buy clean and legal
>> oil? Most of you probably know, the big deal is that collecting
>> WVO in Salt Lake County is currently illegal... Besides that,
>> it takes reasonable infrastructure IMO to collect grease and do
>> it well, and it seems that biodieselers are giving biodiesel a
>> bad name because many are giving up after a few months, walking
>> away from verbal agreements, not picking up barrels when needed,
>> making messes, etc. As Renegade put it, we are "their best
>> salesman."
>>
>> If you can please post up in response, I am curious to hear
>> if you guy think.
>>
>> Hurtles for us are:
>> - Cost of tank, setup, etc.
>> - Cost of insurance (re legal for Renegade).
>> - Cost of oil.
>> - Finding a location for the oil that someone can man.
>>
>> Hurdles for them:
>> - Making sure they can deliver.
>> - Legal (this is probably the biggest deal breaker - they
>> have legitimate legal concerns about it that would need to be
>> addressed).
>>
>>
>> Best, Andre
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
>> hosted by www.utahbiodiesel.org
>>
>> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from
>> indiviual emails to digest mode (one email a day), see http://
>> utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
>> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>>
>>
>> Utah Biodiesel Supply
>> Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
>> Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
>> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
>> http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
>> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
>>
>> The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
>> Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
>> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
>>
>>
>>
>> Utah Biodiesel Supply
>> Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
>> Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
>> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
>> http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
>> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
>>
>> The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
>> Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
>> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: /pipermail/list_utahbiodiesel.org/attachments/20061114/
>> e6c76ddc/attachment.html
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
>> hosted by www.utahbiodiesel.org
>>
>> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual
>> emails to digest mode (one email a day), see http://
>> utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
>> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>>
>> End of list Digest, Vol 92, Issue 3
>> ***********************************
>
> Bill Hartlieb
> bhartlieb at mac.com
> http://homepage.mac.com/bhartlieb/
> 206.650.6490
>
>
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