[Biodiesel In Utah] Interest of WVO / Co-Op
Dustin Palmer
Dustin at mendingshed.net
Tue Nov 14 19:12:23 EST 2006
I drive a 1982 VW Rabbit Truck that is converted to run on SVO. I think
that $0.85 per gallon for clean WVO that is ready to put in my tank is a
bargain.
I have been collecting and filtering oil for about a year now and it is
a lot of work to clean up the "free" oil that I am getting. I am
probably spending at least 85 cents per gallon in time and filters now.
I do have some questions about the cost of biodiesel.
Is a Co-Op going to be able to produce biodiesel for cheaper than what
we can already buy B100 for?
How does the cost of brewing your own biodiesel compare when you have to
pay $0.85 - $1.50 per gallon just for the oil?
Is the price of professionally made B100 going to drop as the demand for
and production of biodiesel increases?
I do not know if there are any answers to these questions right now but
I wanted to throw them out there and see what everyone is thinking.
Dustin Palmer
________________________________
From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org
[mailto:list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org] On Behalf Of Bill Hartlieb
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:03 PM
To: list at utahbiodiesel.org
Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] list Digest, Vol 92, Issue 3
Working with the renderers would be a good idea to get some oil. But
they are not going to provide a product with more stringent processing,
for less money.
The COOP working with the restaurants directly is even better. Secure
oil as early in the process as you can insures the lowest cost, the
opportunity to grade and select.
An organization like this would have to provide a similar service as a
rendering company, and better:
Do it efficiently, and promote a better use for a waste product.
Pay for good oil, collect for okay oil, let the other companies fight
over the poor oil.
Advocate the use of better oil in the restaurant, for their customers,
and for the downstream processes (this extra cost is nullified, as we
pay more for better oil).
As it gets colder the issues of WVO increases, and this requires the use
of more energy, more material handling, less efficient reactions, more
risk. I do not see it being advantageous to process this oil to some
point, and then try to distribute oil all over the place, to then be
further processed? And then waste product scattered all over Utah
county?
If you would pay $1.28 per gallon for yellow grease, would you pay $2.50
for Biodiesel? would you pay $3.00? Would you want to advocate an
efficient and Safe manufacturing of the Biodiesel, testing, and
refining, and responsible disposal of byproduct?
It seems there is a need for a community group that acts like a
community group, working with the community, with the communities best
interest, not just the individuals who are keen to strive for short term
gain.
Would love to hear other thoughts,
Bill Hartlieb
On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:30 PM, list-request at utahbiodiesel.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use in SLCounty
(Andre Shoumatoff)
2. Re: Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use in SLCounty
(Utah Biodiesel Supply)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:40:33 -0700
From: "Andre Shoumatoff" <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com>
Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
in SLCounty
To: <graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com>, "'Biodiesel in Utah'"
<list at utahbiodiesel.org>
Message-ID:
<mailman.66.1163532655.13763.list_utahbiodiesel.org at utahbiodiesel.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As I understand it, once the transportation fee has been paid once and
if
the grease was collected by a renderer, then it does not have to be paid
again (and the permit is not required).. I would be surprized if
everyone
in the chain needed to have the permit, even the end users... I will
have
to double check with the health department, but this is what I
understood
from our meeting last winter when the Health Dept rep was there.. Also
there are some city, fire code, and other issues and personally it has
me a
little concerned as to real world pheasability of homebrewing in homes
and
home garages & such...
Also the cost is a little steep ( I think if it was $.50 a gallon then
it
would be more attractive to us) but about $.85 is not too out of line.
Again this number could go up or down, they will have to look at their
costs.. I think it would be something like "cost" for them, so they
won't
lose money but won't make any and hopefully this could create a solution
to
problems they are saying they have been having with biodieselers and a
solution for us as well... I will have to find out more about the
specifics but I gave them a basic outline of we would need and what
would be
preferred. They said they can selectively choose their oil supplies and
provide lower titration once we went through exactly how it works. We
will
need to work out specifics, water and other contaminents will be
removed..
They have a close looped system where they basically put in the oil and
on
the other end it comes out, so there are no "options" so basically we
will
get what the pig farmers & such get... Also it was good to get a
little
more insight into their business, they see hundreds of thousands of
gallons
sometimes at a time, mostly to Texas & such... Big business...
So again this is proposed.. Number one thing for them is liability, so
if
their lawyers axe the idea, then there goes the concept... Also they
are
not setup for retail so this is why we will need to provide a location..
I
have asked "The Oracle" (Mark from MJ Auto, the Benz mechanic off
Redwood
road who is very biodieseler friendly) and he is considering it. Other
than
that I have no idea where else we could do it. Then there is the cost
of
the tank and liability insurance so there are some real logistical
issues..
Andre
_____
From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org
[mailto:list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org]
On Behalf Of Graydon Blair
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM
To: Biodiesel in Utah
Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
in
SLCounty
How would this deal with the issue of transporting the grease (the REAL
reason it's illegal to collect in SL County?)
The permit is to transport, not to collect the grease. If there was a
tank
full of WVO put somewhere, what are their plans for dispensing it and
getting around the "must be permitted to transport" the grease?
Technically, if it's been rendered or filtered, then we could get around
it
that way, as the county doesn't consider it a "waste" product once it's
been
"industrialized".
What would the fee's be to participate in something like this?
Andre Shoumatoff <andre at utahbiodiesel.org> wrote:
I wanted to report that I have been having discussions with Renegade Oil
including an excellent meeting we had last week up here in Heber City
including a tour of our brewing facility, to come up with a possible
solution to the "grease problem" in Salt Lake County.
The proposed partnership would be a tank (1000 gallons most likely) of
WVO
placed somewhere in Salt Lake City (I am currently exploring options - I
do
have some possibles already). The oil would be available from a wide
diameter spiget to anyone interested. It would be fully rendered, no
water,
would be high quality that will titrate low, and be filtered to at least
1/4" as part of the agreement. Currently estimated cost would be about
~$.85 a gallon to biodieselers (keep in mind they get are currently
getting
$1.28 on the market - so this would be a compromise for them).
At this point, I am trying to gauge how much real world interest there
would
be to using this grease, and whether it is worth the expense of
insurance,
cost of the tank, etc, that hte biodiesel coop will need to take on.
How much are people who are brewing willing to use and would you be
willing
to pay $.85 a gallon or so to buy clean and legal oil? Most of you
probably
know, the big deal is that collecting WVO in Salt Lake County is
currently
illegal... Besides that, it takes reasonable infrastructure IMO to
collect
grease and do it well, and it seems that biodieselers are giving
biodiesel a
bad name because many are giving up after a few months, walking away
from
verbal agreements, not picking up barrels when needed, making messes,
etc.
As Renegade put it, we are "their best salesman."
If you can please post up in response, I am curious to hear if you guy
think.
Hurtles for us are:
- Cost of tank, setup, etc.
- Cost of insurance (re legal for Renegade).
- Cost of oil.
- Finding a location for the oil that someone can man.
Hurdles for them:
- Making sure they can deliver.
- Legal (this is probably the biggest deal breaker - they have
legitimate
legal concerns about it that would need to be addressed).
Best, Andre
_________________________________________________________________
This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah hosted
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To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual emails
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Utah Biodiesel Supply
Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Utah Biodiesel Supply <graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com>
Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
in SLCounty
To: Andre Shoumatoff <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com>,
graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com, 'Biodiesel in Utah'
<list at utahbiodiesel.org>
Message-ID: <20061114193104.39035.qmail at web56007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
That's funny....."to deal w/ the problems the biodieseler's have been
causing them". Hate to say it but they dug their own grave there....
ok, back to the topic at hand.
If they aren't interested (if the lawyer put's an axe into the deal),
let's look at some of the other renderer's. Kuhni's has been very
Biodiesel friendly and so has Bonneville. If Renegade isn't interested
in playing, then it'd definately be worth looking to the other
renderer's in town.
I don't think it'd solve all of their "biodiesel problems", as there's
folks out there that are going to go for the oil regardless of whether
they can buy it or not. It's a principle thing to them.
That said, I think it'd be a step in the right direction. There's
people in North Carolina that collect oil and sell it to Biodieseler's
all the time. Apparently, once it's collected and filtered, it becomes
a "raw" product instead of a "waste" product and the permitting to
transport it goes away.
My ideal oil from them would be 5% or lower FFA content with a water
content of less than 2% and have it filtered down to at least 400
microns. If I'm going to pay for oil, it'd have to be "processed" per
above, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Still a very doable proposition. Land's not cheap though & you'd need to
be able to do a secondary containment around the tank if you procured
all the oil.
Interesting....
-Graydon
Andre Shoumatoff <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com> wrote: As I understand
it, once the transportation fee has been paid once and if the grease
was collected by a renderer, then it does not have to be paid again
(and the permit is not required).. I would be surprized if everyone
in the chain needed to have the permit, even the end users... I will
have to double check with the health department, but this is what I
understood from our meeting last winter when the Health Dept rep was
there.. Also there are some city, fire code, and other issues and
personally it has me a little concerned as to real world pheasability
of homebrewing in homes and home garages & such...
Also the cost is a little steep ( I think if it was $.50 a gallon then
it would be more attractive to us) but about $.85 is not too out of
line. Again this number could go up or down, they will have to look at
their costs.. I think it would be something like "cost" for them, so
they won't lose money but won't make any and hopefully this could create
a solution to problems they are saying they have been having with
biodieselers and a solution for us as well... I will have to find
out more about the specifics but I gave them a basic outline of we
would need and what would be preferred. They said they can selectively
choose their oil supplies and provide lower titration once we went
through exactly how it works. We will need to work out specifics,
water and other contaminents will be removed.. They have a close
looped system where they basically put in the oil and on the other end
it comes out, so there are no "options" so basically we will get what
the
pig farmers & such get... Also it was good to get a little more
insight into their business, they see hundreds of thousands of gallons
sometimes at a time, mostly to Texas & such... Big business...
So again this is proposed.. Number one thing for them is liability,
so if their lawyers axe the idea, then there goes the concept... Also
they are not setup for retail so this is why we will need to provide a
location.. I have asked "The Oracle" (Mark from MJ Auto, the Benz
mechanic off Redwood road who is very biodieseler friendly) and he is
considering it. Other than that I have no idea where else we could do
it. Then there is the cost of the tank and liability insurance so
there are some real logistical issues..
Andre
---------------------------------
From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org
[mailto:list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org] On Behalf Of Graydon Blair
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM
To: Biodiesel in Utah
Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
in SLCounty
How would this deal with the issue of transporting the grease (the REAL
reason it's illegal to collect in SL County?)
The permit is to transport, not to collect the grease. If there was a
tank full of WVO put somewhere, what are their plans for dispensing it
and getting around the "must be permitted to transport" the grease?
Technically, if it's been rendered or filtered, then we could get
around it that way, as the county doesn't consider it a "waste" product
once it's been "industrialized".
What would the fee's be to participate in something like this?
Andre Shoumatoff <andre at utahbiodiesel.org> wrote: I wanted to
report that I have been having discussions with Renegade Oil
including an excellent meeting we had last week up here in Heber City
including a tour of our brewing facility, to come up with a possible
solution to the "grease problem" in Salt Lake County.
The proposed partnership would be a tank (1000 gallons most
likely) of WVO placed somewhere in Salt Lake City (I am currently
exploring options - I do have some possibles already). The oil would
be available from a wide diameter spiget to anyone interested. It
would be fully rendered, no water, would be high quality that will
titrate low, and be filtered to at least 1/4" as part of the
agreement. Currently estimated cost would be about ~$.85 a gallon to
biodieselers (keep in mind they get are currently getting $1.28 on
the market - so this would be a compromise for them).
At this point, I am trying to gauge how much real world interest
there would be to using this grease, and whether it is worth the
expense of insurance, cost of the tank, etc, that hte biodiesel coop
will need to take on.
How much are people who are brewing willing to use and would you
be willing to pay $.85 a gallon or so to buy clean and legal oil?
Most of you probably know, the big deal is that collecting WVO in
Salt Lake County is currently illegal... Besides that, it takes
reasonable infrastructure IMO to collect grease and do it well, and
it seems that biodieselers are giving biodiesel a bad name because
many are giving up after a few months, walking away from verbal
agreements, not picking up barrels when needed, making messes, etc.
As Renegade put it, we are "their best salesman."
If you can please post up in response, I am curious to hear if you
guy think.
Hurtles for us are:
- Cost of tank, setup, etc.
- Cost of insurance (re legal for Renegade).
- Cost of oil.
- Finding a location for the oil that someone can man.
Hurdles for them:
- Making sure they can deliver.
- Legal (this is probably the biggest deal breaker - they have
legitimate legal concerns about it that would need to be addressed).
Best, Andre
_________________________________________________________________
This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
hosted by www.utahbiodiesel.org
To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual
emails to digest mode (one email a day), see
http://utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
Utah Biodiesel Supply
Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
Utah Biodiesel Supply
Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
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_________________________________________________________________
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End of list Digest, Vol 92, Issue 3
***********************************
Bill Hartlieb
bhartlieb at mac.com
http://homepage.mac.com/bhartlieb/
<http://homepage.mac.com/bhartlieb/Menu13.html>
206.650.6490
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