[Biodiesel In Utah] list Digest, Vol 92, Issue 3
Bill Hartlieb
bhartlieb at mac.com
Tue Nov 14 15:02:38 EST 2006
Working with the renderers would be a good idea to get some oil. But
they are not going to provide a product with more stringent
processing, for less money.
The COOP working with the restaurants directly is even better.
Secure oil as early in the process as you can insures the lowest
cost, the opportunity to grade and select.
An organization like this would have to provide a similar service as
a rendering company, and better:
Do it efficiently, and promote a better use for a waste product.
Pay for good oil, collect for okay oil, let the other companies
fight over the poor oil.
Advocate the use of better oil in the restaurant, for their
customers, and for the downstream processes (this extra cost is
nullified, as we pay more for better oil).
As it gets colder the issues of WVO increases, and this requires the
use of more energy, more material handling, less efficient reactions,
more risk. I do not see it being advantageous to process this oil
to some point, and then try to distribute oil all over the place, to
then be further processed? And then waste product scattered all
over Utah county?
If you would pay $1.28 per gallon for yellow grease, would you pay
$2.50 for Biodiesel? would you pay $3.00? Would you want to
advocate an efficient and Safe manufacturing of the Biodiesel,
testing, and refining, and responsible disposal of byproduct?
It seems there is a need for a community group that acts like a
community group, working with the community, with the communities
best interest, not just the individuals who are keen to strive for
short term gain.
Would love to hear other thoughts,
Bill Hartlieb
On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:30 PM, list-request at utahbiodiesel.org wrote:
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>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use in SLCounty
> (Andre Shoumatoff)
> 2. Re: Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use in SLCounty
> (Utah Biodiesel Supply)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:40:33 -0700
> From: "Andre Shoumatoff" <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com>
> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
> in SLCounty
> To: <graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com>, "'Biodiesel in Utah'"
> <list at utahbiodiesel.org>
> Message-ID:
> <mailman.
> 66.1163532655.13763.list_utahbiodiesel.org at utahbiodiesel.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> As I understand it, once the transportation fee has been paid once
> and if
> the grease was collected by a renderer, then it does not have to be
> paid
> again (and the permit is not required).. I would be surprized if
> everyone
> in the chain needed to have the permit, even the end users... I
> will have
> to double check with the health department, but this is what I
> understood
> from our meeting last winter when the Health Dept rep was there..
> Also
> there are some city, fire code, and other issues and personally it
> has me a
> little concerned as to real world pheasability of homebrewing in
> homes and
> home garages & such...
>
> Also the cost is a little steep ( I think if it was $.50 a gallon
> then it
> would be more attractive to us) but about $.85 is not too out of line.
> Again this number could go up or down, they will have to look at their
> costs.. I think it would be something like "cost" for them, so
> they won't
> lose money but won't make any and hopefully this could create a
> solution to
> problems they are saying they have been having with biodieselers and a
> solution for us as well... I will have to find out more about the
> specifics but I gave them a basic outline of we would need and what
> would be
> preferred. They said they can selectively choose their oil
> supplies and
> provide lower titration once we went through exactly how it works.
> We will
> need to work out specifics, water and other contaminents will be
> removed..
> They have a close looped system where they basically put in the oil
> and on
> the other end it comes out, so there are no "options" so basically
> we will
> get what the pig farmers & such get... Also it was good to get a
> little
> more insight into their business, they see hundreds of thousands of
> gallons
> sometimes at a time, mostly to Texas & such... Big business...
>
> So again this is proposed.. Number one thing for them is
> liability, so if
> their lawyers axe the idea, then there goes the concept... Also
> they are
> not setup for retail so this is why we will need to provide a
> location.. I
> have asked "The Oracle" (Mark from MJ Auto, the Benz mechanic off
> Redwood
> road who is very biodieseler friendly) and he is considering it.
> Other than
> that I have no idea where else we could do it. Then there is the
> cost of
> the tank and liability insurance so there are some real logistical
> issues..
>
>
> Andre
>
> _____
>
> From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at utahbiodiesel.org]
> On Behalf Of Graydon Blair
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM
> To: Biodiesel in Utah
> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/
> use in
> SLCounty
>
>
> How would this deal with the issue of transporting the grease (the
> REAL
> reason it's illegal to collect in SL County?)
>
> The permit is to transport, not to collect the grease. If there was
> a tank
> full of WVO put somewhere, what are their plans for dispensing it and
> getting around the "must be permitted to transport" the grease?
>
> Technically, if it's been rendered or filtered, then we could get
> around it
> that way, as the county doesn't consider it a "waste" product once
> it's been
> "industrialized".
>
> What would the fee's be to participate in something like this?
>
> Andre Shoumatoff <andre at utahbiodiesel.org> wrote:
>
> I wanted to report that I have been having discussions with
> Renegade Oil
> including an excellent meeting we had last week up here in Heber City
> including a tour of our brewing facility, to come up with a possible
> solution to the "grease problem" in Salt Lake County.
>
> The proposed partnership would be a tank (1000 gallons most likely)
> of WVO
> placed somewhere in Salt Lake City (I am currently exploring
> options - I do
> have some possibles already). The oil would be available from a wide
> diameter spiget to anyone interested. It would be fully rendered,
> no water,
> would be high quality that will titrate low, and be filtered to at
> least
> 1/4" as part of the agreement. Currently estimated cost would be
> about
> ~$.85 a gallon to biodieselers (keep in mind they get are currently
> getting
> $1.28 on the market - so this would be a compromise for them).
>
> At this point, I am trying to gauge how much real world interest
> there would
> be to using this grease, and whether it is worth the expense of
> insurance,
> cost of the tank, etc, that hte biodiesel coop will need to take on.
>
> How much are people who are brewing willing to use and would you be
> willing
> to pay $.85 a gallon or so to buy clean and legal oil? Most of you
> probably
> know, the big deal is that collecting WVO in Salt Lake County is
> currently
> illegal... Besides that, it takes reasonable infrastructure IMO
> to collect
> grease and do it well, and it seems that biodieselers are giving
> biodiesel a
> bad name because many are giving up after a few months, walking
> away from
> verbal agreements, not picking up barrels when needed, making
> messes, etc.
> As Renegade put it, we are "their best salesman."
>
> If you can please post up in response, I am curious to hear if you guy
> think.
>
> Hurtles for us are:
> - Cost of tank, setup, etc.
> - Cost of insurance (re legal for Renegade).
> - Cost of oil.
> - Finding a location for the oil that someone can man.
>
> Hurdles for them:
> - Making sure they can deliver.
> - Legal (this is probably the biggest deal breaker - they have
> legitimate
> legal concerns about it that would need to be addressed).
>
>
> Best, Andre
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
> hosted by
> www.utahbiodiesel.org
>
> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual
> emails to
> digest mode (one email a day), see
> http://utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>
>
>
>
> Utah Biodiesel Supply
> Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
> Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
> http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
>
> The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
> Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
> <http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:31:03 -0800 (PST)
> From: Utah Biodiesel Supply <graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com>
> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/use
> in SLCounty
> To: Andre Shoumatoff <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com>,
> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com, 'Biodiesel in Utah'
> <list at utahbiodiesel.org>
> Message-ID: <20061114193104.39035.qmail at web56007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> That's funny....."to deal w/ the problems the biodieseler's have
> been causing them". Hate to say it but they dug their own grave
> there....
> ok, back to the topic at hand.
>
> If they aren't interested (if the lawyer put's an axe into the
> deal), let's look at some of the other renderer's. Kuhni's has been
> very Biodiesel friendly and so has Bonneville. If Renegade isn't
> interested in playing, then it'd definately be worth looking to the
> other renderer's in town.
>
> I don't think it'd solve all of their "biodiesel problems", as
> there's folks out there that are going to go for the oil regardless
> of whether they can buy it or not. It's a principle thing to them.
>
> That said, I think it'd be a step in the right direction. There's
> people in North Carolina that collect oil and sell it to
> Biodieseler's all the time. Apparently, once it's collected and
> filtered, it becomes a "raw" product instead of a "waste" product
> and the permitting to transport it goes away.
>
> My ideal oil from them would be 5% or lower FFA content with a
> water content of less than 2% and have it filtered down to at least
> 400 microns. If I'm going to pay for oil, it'd have to be
> "processed" per above, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
>
> Still a very doable proposition. Land's not cheap though & you'd
> need to be able to do a secondary containment around the tank if
> you procured all the oil.
>
> Interesting....
> -Graydon
>
>
> Andre Shoumatoff <andre at shoumatoffmedia.com> wrote: As I
> understand it, once the transportation fee has been paid once and
> if the grease was collected by a renderer, then it does not have
> to be paid again (and the permit is not required).. I would be
> surprized if everyone in the chain needed to have the permit, even
> the end users... I will have to double check with the health
> department, but this is what I understood from our meeting last
> winter when the Health Dept rep was there.. Also there are some
> city, fire code, and other issues and personally it has me a
> little concerned as to real world pheasability of homebrewing in
> homes and home garages & such...
>
> Also the cost is a little steep ( I think if it was $.50 a gallon
> then it would be more attractive to us) but about $.85 is not too
> out of line. Again this number could go up or down, they will
> have to look at their costs.. I think it would be something like
> "cost" for them, so they won't lose money but won't make any and
> hopefully this could create a solution to problems they are saying
> they have been having with biodieselers and a solution for us as
> well... I will have to find out more about the specifics but I
> gave them a basic outline of we would need and what would be
> preferred. They said they can selectively choose their oil
> supplies and provide lower titration once we went through exactly
> how it works. We will need to work out specifics, water and
> other contaminents will be removed.. They have a close looped
> system where they basically put in the oil and on the other end it
> comes out, so there are no "options" so basically we will get what
> the
> pig farmers & such get... Also it was good to get a little more
> insight into their business, they see hundreds of thousands of
> gallons sometimes at a time, mostly to Texas & such... Big
> business...
>
> So again this is proposed.. Number one thing for them is
> liability, so if their lawyers axe the idea, then there goes the
> concept... Also they are not setup for retail so this is why we
> will need to provide a location.. I have asked "The Oracle" (Mark
> from MJ Auto, the Benz mechanic off Redwood road who is very
> biodieseler friendly) and he is considering it. Other than that I
> have no idea where else we could do it. Then there is the cost of
> the tank and liability insurance so there are some real logistical
> issues..
>
> Andre
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> From: list-bounces at utahbiodiesel.org [mailto:list-
> bounces at utahbiodiesel.org] On Behalf Of Graydon Blair
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM
> To: Biodiesel in Utah
> Subject: Re: [Biodiesel In Utah] Gauging Real Interest of WVO need/
> use in SLCounty
>
>
>
> How would this deal with the issue of transporting the grease (the
> REAL reason it's illegal to collect in SL County?)
>
> The permit is to transport, not to collect the grease. If there
> was a tank full of WVO put somewhere, what are their plans for
> dispensing it and getting around the "must be permitted to
> transport" the grease?
>
> Technically, if it's been rendered or filtered, then we could get
> around it that way, as the county doesn't consider it a "waste"
> product once it's been "industrialized".
>
> What would the fee's be to participate in something like this?
>
> Andre Shoumatoff <andre at utahbiodiesel.org> wrote: I
> wanted to report that I have been having discussions with
> Renegade Oil including an excellent meeting we had last week up
> here in Heber City including a tour of our brewing facility, to
> come up with a possible solution to the "grease problem" in Salt
> Lake County.
>
> The proposed partnership would be a tank (1000 gallons most
> likely) of WVO placed somewhere in Salt Lake City (I am
> currently exploring options - I do have some possibles
> already). The oil would be available from a wide diameter spiget
> to anyone interested. It would be fully rendered, no water,
> would be high quality that will titrate low, and be filtered to
> at least 1/4" as part of the agreement. Currently estimated
> cost would be about ~$.85 a gallon to biodieselers (keep in mind
> they get are currently getting $1.28 on the market - so this
> would be a compromise for them).
>
> At this point, I am trying to gauge how much real world
> interest there would be to using this grease, and whether it is
> worth the expense of insurance, cost of the tank, etc, that hte
> biodiesel coop will need to take on.
>
> How much are people who are brewing willing to use and would
> you be willing to pay $.85 a gallon or so to buy clean and legal
> oil? Most of you probably know, the big deal is that collecting
> WVO in Salt Lake County is currently illegal... Besides that,
> it takes reasonable infrastructure IMO to collect grease and do
> it well, and it seems that biodieselers are giving biodiesel a
> bad name because many are giving up after a few months, walking
> away from verbal agreements, not picking up barrels when needed,
> making messes, etc. As Renegade put it, we are "their best
> salesman."
>
> If you can please post up in response, I am curious to hear
> if you guy think.
>
> Hurtles for us are:
> - Cost of tank, setup, etc.
> - Cost of insurance (re legal for Renegade).
> - Cost of oil.
> - Finding a location for the oil that someone can man.
>
> Hurdles for them:
> - Making sure they can deliver.
> - Legal (this is probably the biggest deal breaker - they
> have legitimate legal concerns about it that would need to be
> addressed).
>
>
> Best, Andre
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
> hosted by www.utahbiodiesel.org
>
> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from
> indiviual emails to digest mode (one email a day), see http://
> utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>
>
> Utah Biodiesel Supply
> Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
> Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
> http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
>
> The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
> Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
>
>
>
> Utah Biodiesel Supply
> Biodiesel Homebrewing Supplies, Equipment, Literature
> Bumper Stickers, Decals, Information & More!
> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com
> http://www.cafepress.com/utahbdsupply
> graydon at utahbiodieselsupply.com
>
> The Rabid Biodiesel Nut
> Our Blog About All Things Biodiesel
> http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> _________________________________________________________________
> This is an email list of Biodiesel Supporters and Users in Utah
> hosted by www.utahbiodiesel.org
>
> To unsubcribe, modify your subscription, or switch from indiviual
> emails to digest mode (one email a day), see http://
> utahbiodiesel.org/mailman/listinfo/list_utahbiodiesel.org
> Also see www.utahbiodiesel.org for more info.
>
> End of list Digest, Vol 92, Issue 3
> ***********************************
Bill Hartlieb
bhartlieb at mac.com
http://homepage.mac.com/bhartlieb/
206.650.6490
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